#2 - How Everything Everywhere All At Once Gave Us A White Pill

In this episode, we use the film Everything Everywhere All At Once to explain our current moral framework and philosophy. It contains lots of spoilers, so if you haven't seen the film, we encourage you to watch it first, then come back here.

Today we're going to talk about our most recent favourite movie, Everything Everywhere All At Once. And this is a movie, while there's so much to love, we're going to specifically talk about why we felt like this movie perfectly encapsulates our philosophy when it comes to Buddhism and Anarchism. I saw the movie twice, you've seen the movie only once. I guess I've had a little bit more time to process what had happened or what happened? And for you, what has your experience been like the first, the one and only time you've seen it?

Well, I think maybe a lot of people can relate to this, which is that on my first viewing of Everything Everywhere All At Once, I was just laughing, crying, laughing, crying, laughing, crying for the most part, without even realising or fully understanding why? Because I don't know, I just feel like, it wasn't the kind of, I mean, there are movies that will strike you and really make you cry. And you know, it's gonna make you cry. But somehow watching this movie, like I didn't understand, like, it was so wacky, but I was crying. So it was kind of like just this, almost like a cognitive dissonant experience for me in that regard. And another thing that I want to point out is that for maybe some of the Asian viewers, or viewers who are more familiar with Buddhist philosophy, they were able to see a lot of Buddhist elements or iconography in the film, and you're one of them. And because I at that time of watching the film, I wasn't super into the Buddhist philosophy yet, so there were a lot of things that just did not strike me in any deep way. So for example, with the everything bagel, other people were able to connect that with the enso, which is the Zen Buddhism, symbol of the void and enlightenment. So that is the circle. And when I just saw that, and I saw it was a recurring image in the film, but to me, that did not mean an enso, that just meant a bagel, or like, the void, so to say, because the film pretty much kind of said it was a void. But that was it to me. And with the googly eye with you know, it becoming the third eye of Evelyn at the end of the movie, I didn't think of Buddha and enlightenment. I just thought, okay, just a quirky googly eye that you put on your forehead, that didn't really mean anything to me.

Okay, well, I wouldn't really claim myself to be like knowledgeable when it comes to Buddhism. And it was actually this movie that kind of clued me into more like Buddhist ideas. I think I watched this movie more from an anarchist perspective, and would see like the themes kind of confirm my presumptions when it comes to anarchism. And I was surprised to see it portrayed in this Buddhist perspective. And, and so I started to make that connection between anarchism and Buddhism. And it basically got me excited. And that's what I want to talk about today. So I actually didn't know what to expect from this movie. I didn't see any trailers. All I knew is Michelle Yeoh, period. Didn't even know it's multiverse, right? Had I know that I would have been more excited because I am really, I am really excited by this idea of multiverse as a way to explain, as a way to explain, Buddhist... I'm about to say resurrection, but it's not resurrection, incarnation. Yeah. The Christian influences are going to come out throughout this discussion. Yes, reincarnation, and, you know, a lot of people were saying, Oh, finally, you know, multiverse. Done. Right. Right? And to me, multiverse done right is in the context of, no, I don't want to say that that's the way it's done right. But for me, at least I'm extremely excited by portraying reincarnation as multiverse. Right. And if you think about, so let's talk about like this Buddhist reincarnation aspect of it. And so maybe you could start from there and then, and then explain the rest. So, Buddhist reincarnation from a Christian perspective, you know, we like to look at other faiths as though they talk about their faith in the literal sense. And that's very understandable because in the Christian faith, when we talk about the things that we believe in, in the Christian faith, they are actually tangible. So when we say I believe in resurrection of Christ, they mean, they literally believe that the wafer is the body of Christ resurrected, something like this, right? Or the

That's badly put but I think people will get the idea.

Or the different sacraments are like, you know, it really does happen, or I really do believe in these things. So if you're a Christian and you're introduced to Buddhism, reincarnation, you would say, well, that's actually incompatible with my beliefs. If you were to treat it as something that's tangible, and something that really does happen, right. But I think when the Buddhists talk about reincarnation, I don't. I don't want to speak for Buddhists, right? But at least from where I'm coming from, I don't think they mean it in the literal sense, as though you really will be reincarnated. And then all the, I don't know all the metaphysical, like, questions or answers to how that is possible. Right? I don't think that's really the point of reincarnation, when they talks about it. I think reincarnation, when they talk about it is more of a way to explain or way for you to personalise the cycle of life, which is a cycle of suffering, right? So reincarnation basically says, this painful and suffering filled life that you have, once you die, you will be reborn and you will have yet another full life full of suffering and pain. And when you die from that you will have another full life of suffering and pain. The point is, the suffering and pain that you go through right now in this life, it's no different from any other any other suffering that you would encounter in infinite number of lives, right? And now I bring the word infinite. And that's where like, okay, that kind of sounds like multiverse right? Because multiverse multiverse theory comes actually from the, like the cutting edge of physics, which is quantum theory, right? This superposition of particles... Is it a wave? Is it a particle? Where is it? We can't predict where it is. There's infinite possibilities, etc, right? And so while while for a lot of people, maybe, you know, if you get into the quantum mechanics stuff, you know, it sounds really might sound very technical, very sciency, and not not very approachable. I'm very excited to see, sort of, multiverse in the context of stories, and using that as a narrative device or a narrative tool to teach the lessons that you want to teach. And in this case, the lesson is the teachings of Buddhism, which is one of the oldest sort of faiths or traditions or religions. So yeah, we can start from there. And the you know, you brought up the enso. So we said, we were talking about how life is just this cycle of suffering, right, and there's infinite amount of suffering. They have this symbol, which is the enso, I had no idea what the enso was until you brought it up. So I actually watched the movie without knowing that this symbol exists. And you explain to me that the enso, is a hand drawn circle with a brush. So hand painted circle, right? Well, maybe you should say what you find out about the enso.

I should say that I started looking into the enso when I saw a lot of video essays that were explaining the Buddhist elements of the film, and that's how I got to the enso. And so according to Wikipedia, which is like the most basic source of it is that like I said earlier, it's the symbol of enlightenment and the void. And what's interesting about that for Zen Buddhists is that it is able to capture the present. When you draw an enso, that's it. That is a complete moment and that enso encapsulates the person you are right now. All your feelings, all your thoughts, all the maybe the stresses of your body will be, you know, will somehow manifest itself in that enso and you can not draw the same enso twice, so to say, because we are ever changing. And the other interesting thing about the enso is that it contains the void, which is the empty middle section of the circle. And so it kind of suggests that the void, this nothingness, and enlightenment, somehow go together. Whereas, for example, we might have, you know, this kind of line between the two, right? That maybe there's the, I mean, they sound different, right? Void and enlightenment. But for Zen Buddhists, you can't have one without the other. And obviously, like I said, you see that in the ensoo. And actually, maybe the movie also takes some creative liberties with how they portray the enso. So for example, in the movie, they show the enso as the everything bagel, which is the void. And it was, it was just this dark force, almost like a black hole, right? And in the movie, this, the symbol for the enlightenment was the googly eye. I mean, of course, the creators can, can, you know, take those creative liberties for the non Buddhists to, you know, better understand the film. But, I think it's quite interesting that you have this just this really simple symbol that anyone can do. Maybe, you know, maybe the implication, or the point is that all of us are meant to realise that, yes, we suffer. But in that suffering, is where the Enlightenment lies, and it's just maybe waiting to happen. And maybe it's something that, you know, can spring from us at any given time as well.

So, the void right? The enso is the everything bagel. In the movie, the everything bagel is all of her pain and suffering, Joy's pain and suffering, right? And maybe we should introduce a Buddhist concept here, which is detachment. And when the Buddhists say detachment, they mean detachment from like, the material world. And material world doesn't just mean like material things, it also includes material concepts, or abstractions that we create in our minds, right? So being detached from the material world also includes relationships with other people that exists in our mind, right? Or, you know, your politics, or your religion, or anything really, that is from this realm, this material realm.

Yeah, I would add to that, that even your expectations, or your ideas of yourself, and of other people, I think you also need to detach yourself from that. Because the point of the attachment based on what I've read is that you know, these things, these material things, or these even emotions that we experience, they can easily blind us from seeing, you know, the truth or just seeing people for what they are. So, yeah, that is the point of detachment. And I should probably kind of correct myself when I said that the movie, you know, drew a line between the bagel and the googly eye, the void and the enlightenment, because the movie still showed that enlightenment happens when you go through the suffering. And we see that happen through the character of Evelyn.

Yeah, before we talk about Evelyn, I think we're jumping a few steps here. Let's really go into Joy and what she went through. So she enters the void. She lives an infinite number of lives, and in the process experiences all the ways that she could possibly suffer, or not possibly, actually suffered because she lived them. And that includes all the ways she's hurt other people, all the ways other people have hurt her, and witnessing all the ways people hurt one another. And it's very easy to imagine going through going through that and just being nihilistic, right? That's embodied by Joy's persona, or I should say, maybe Jobu Tupaki's persona, because she keeps going on about how nothing matters, how everything is nonsense, right? And as an anarchist, usually when I'm talking about anarchists topics or ideas, a lot of people kind of just dismiss me as being pessimistic or also nihilist, right.? And there is some truth in that, because when anarchists kind of go into the void, so to say, right, and see all the suffering in the world, and when I say see all the suffering in the world, I'm talking about, like, I'm talking about the worst kinds of suffering, which is done by cope by coercion and violence from people that you don't even know, right? I'm talking about, I'm talking here about state coercion and state violence. Again, this is my perspective. But the enso doesn't have to be like, you know, it's not just politics, right? It's also not just like, your well being, so to say. Or your interpersonal relationships. The enso is, whatever it is that is most important to you that causes the most amount of suffering. And it's not whatever it is, it's all the things that are important to you, and all the things that cause suffering to you. It just so happens from my point of view, that is politics, and that is anarchism. Yeah. And so nihilism, this, you know, extreme pessimism, this is the only thing that people hear. But what I wanted, what I wish I could tell them, what I wish they could feel is if you go into the void, and you can meet and you sort of like, stick to it, and stick to it, but like, I guess, come find a way to come out the other side, is you will find the white pill, right? You will actually become more hopeful than you ever were before, in a weird way. And maybe that's something that we're going to talk about, like how you get there, or how one might be able to get there. In Buddhism, they actually have a word for that, you know, it's called enlightenment. And so, going into the void is necessary to find enlightenment, living that suffering, understanding, or perhaps seeing all the ways people can suffer, that is actually, ironically, that's actually the path to enlightenment. Not everybody gets to enlightenment, just because they enter the void, as seen with Joy, right? And yet, some people do and that's actually what happens with Michelle Yeoh's character, Evelyn. She's able to go into the void, almost becomes nihilistic, right? There's a sequence where she says, nothing matters, I'm not going to pay my taxes anymore. Wink, wink, right? Destroys her business, breaks up with her husband, says "I don't care about my father" or whatever. But somehow she's able to still stay, she still manages to stay grounded.

Yeah, the interesting part with Joy is that when she went into the void, it wasn't even of her own volition. So her seeing all the many ways that people suffered was because Evelyn, her mom, was imposing things on Joy and was making, I mean, this was in the Alpha universe, right? Alpha Evelyn put this device on Alpha Joy, so that alpha Joy could, quote unquote, you know, be the better, you know, be a better person, whatever that means. And because of a malfunction, the universe just kind of, or the multiverse kind of just exploded in Joy's perspective.

Yeah, yeah, that's really, that's a really good point that you're making there. We have to remember: One doesn't enter the void, by their own volition, right? It's usually an external force that causes suffering in people. And it's when they cause that suffering, That's when, that's when people sort of like realise, or like, start to process it and start to understand it. And as they're doing that, maybe they're, they're looking elsewhere to how other people have suffered. And so they become more and more exposed to, you know, all kinds of suffering that's happening in all different ways. So I said earlier, right, I came into this movie as an anarchist first and then came out with like, Buddhist idea, and I started to wonder, you know, sort of what is the relationship between Buddhism and anarchism? Is one a sub ideology of the other? And I started to think of it more as like, these are two, these are actually the same idea, but they're sort of explained in different realms. So, if Buddhism is in the spiritual realm, then anarchism is in, like the political realm, but both have the same conclusion, which is coercion and violence causes suffering, and what we should be doing is, you know, what we should be doing is having extreme empathy and kindness to others. But I'm jumping, I'm jumping a few steps here, because, but I just wanted to say that, I just wanted to just make that connection already between Buddhism and Anarchism. And I feel like both are very, are deeply complementary, because one or the other, explains... they explain one another in each other's realms, right? So where the anarchists, you know, when anarchists are talking about politics and society and things like this, and people have questions on "Okay, well, what does that mean? What does it imply for my spiritual well being," right? Anarchists might not have the answer. Whereas, whereas for Buddhists, right, where they're talking about, you know, your spiritual well being, and so forth, they might not have the answers for the politics side. So the two coming together is actually a great way to like, I guess, round out the philosophy as a whole. This non-aggression, non-coercive philosophy.

I should say, also, that part of the philosophy, and you already touched on this, part of the philosophy of both is this kind of detachment. And I like how, maybe it's quite interesting how the attachment is important, because our attachments are sources of our suffering. And, you know, experiencing the void, experiencing suffering, whether or not we chose the sufferings that we experience, it's interesting that the path to enlightenment, more often than not, involves connecting with other people. I'm sorry, I don't really know if connecting with other people is like a prerequisite to enlightenment. But certainly, both connection and enlightenment, have a connection. For sure, the similarities I see with both is that you see things for what they are, you accept people for what they are. That includes, you know, the people you might not like, that involves seeing people beyond the labels, right? So I think the movie has a bunch of labels for the different people. Like we have the tax collector agent, for example, we have the mom, the daughter, all those things. And what I think Buddhism and anarchism kind of agree on is that you want to peel those things back. And you want to detach yourself from all those labels, so that you can maybe in a way, you know, live out your full potential, or be pretty much be anything you want to be.

Yeah. It's funny, though, because, because we're saying or Buddhism or whatever is saying, we need to be detached, and yet we still need to find connection with people. So what's the difference between like attachment to people and connection with people?

Okay, that's a really good question. And I feel like we're making some rhymes here as we as we talk. But I think with attachment, it feels like you're bound to something or you're clinging to something. And it, it almost, I think, at least the image that comes to my mind is that it's quite one sided, as opposed to having a connection. It's a connection with something or someone. So in a way, there's, like, the aspect of, you know, consent, you know, it's voluntary. It's mutual. So I think maybe that's the thing with attachment. What comes with it is, you know, maybe it's coercion or if not coercion, there's an imposition of what you want or what you think, as opposed to connection which is "I see you and you see me."

"I see you, you see me, I'm not so lonely in this world, this suffering that I feel is not just me alone, but other people suffer the same way I do." So this ties in pretty well, with Joy's experience going into the void. She goes into the void, and experiences a life that nobody else had ever experienced before her, that experience is the experience of experiencing everything, right? And if you look at her motivations, it's actually not to kill her mother or destroy the world. Her only motivation, in fact, is to find somebody who can know what it's like to suffer the same way she did, right? So what she's looking for is basically like a deep form of empathy, right? And empathy that perhaps can only exist if those two people really did live like the same life. Not the same life, but at least suffered in very similar ways. And that's something that, you know, a lot of people when they think about Buddhists or anarchists, you know, usually the idea that comes to mind sometimes, right, is that of a hermit lifestyle, where one is completely detached. There's the word again, from society and family and everything, right? And it's easy to see, like people who go down that route, and just like get stuck, stuck there. And I'm not saying that "oh, because you're a hermit, you're, you're not connected or not connected" or anything like that. I'm just talking about, I guess, like people's preconceptions. Because I think, for most people, you would be really unhappy, right to live a completely isolated life that is that has no, that has no connection with anybody whatsoever. Her looking for her mom is not even about her about looking about or forming a connection with her mother. In fact, in the story, it just so happened, like the way it was told is, it just so happens that the mother is the only person who would be able to endure like that, because you know, there's some metaphysical process that happens with the Sci Fi right. And in the story, only the mother could go through that process and come out of it alive, right?

I think the reason why it was Evelyn, like really Evelyn and not you know, Joy's mom, I think it was Evelyn, because we saw that she was also not content with her life, right? She was daydreaming all the time. She didn't really have time for herself. So I think maybe in some, maybe subconsciously, maybe Joy knew that. And maybe that's why Joy sought out her mom, because she knew her mom was also not happy.

Yeah. So it doesn't have to be the, I don't think it's about the mother. It's really more about finding somebody else, anybody else who could empathise with you. But I think it's appropriate that it's the mother because in real life, if there is one person who you would want to, you would... If there is one person who you would expect, would empathise with you, no matter what you become, or no matter what you do, if there's nobody else it would be your parents. So it's also fitting that Evelyn is her mother. So should we go into Evelyn, is there anything else about the void at all? I will say this, okay. Like, part of the reason why we're making this podcast is because as anarchists, it gets very lonely to talk about these ideas, by ourselves, you know, in our own world, and we need that connection as part of like, as part of our own sanity, almost?

I was gonna say that.

We don't want to be stuck here by ourselves. And that's why we're making this podcast because we want to find people who have similar views or people who would want to talk about these kinds of ideas with us.

Yeah, I think we were looking, we're also looking for people who will understand us without any judgments.

You got it right. So anything else that has to be said about the void, suffering? Enso? Before we move on to Evelyn, and how to how she was able to get into the void and basically come out enlightened.

Nothing comes to mind right now, but so go on.

So, Evelyn, almost becomes nihilist. And she is able to sort of, she's able to come back from that, and still be good, because she actually had what Joy didn't have and what Joy was looking for, which is someone who would love her in every multiverse. And in the movie that's her husband Waymond. In multiverse, like theory or whatever, you know, there's supposedly infinite possibilities. So the chance of Waymond loving her in every universe, if there's infinite number of universes, right, should have been, it should have been like, random, it should have been some universes, he doesn't love her and some universes, he doesn't love her and yet every single universe, Waymond is the same. He might be, he might have different circumstances. But in every one of those universes, he always accepts Evelyn, for who she is. So maybe, so how does one do that? Right? How does one, in every life that they are reincarnated slash every multiverse that you could possibly live, how is it that you maintain or you stay true to yourself and you stay good? I mentioned earlier that I was already clued into this idea of like multiverse as a way to form like a moral framework. And that's why I was so excited when I, you know, when I was watching this movie, I'm like, Oh, I see it again. I see the I see this this multiverse, reincarnation, morality framework thing. Okay. So maybe I should explain how I came up with that idea. I didn't come up with it, I read it in a story is a Ted Chiang short story called Anxiety is the Dizziness of Freedom. Both stories have similarities in the sense that they have really long titles. So in this story, it's sci fi, where it's a sci fi story where people have this device so that when they need to make an important life decision, they can use this device to talk to their parallel selves in the world that was created, where your parallel self chose the option that you did not choose. And of course, by them communicating, being able to compare notes, you know, how their lives live, create all kinds of like problems and suffering again.

Yeah, because you get jealous, for example…

or whatever it is. And there's, it's really fun on how this how the story explores the different ways because it has different characters, and they all have their own, like, they all have to deal with some kind of a problem because there exists this whole like, parallel selves, sci fi thing. Anyway, on the morality, right, so multiverse theory says any action that you make, would result in an infinite possible number of reactions, and there's no way to really predict, like, what are the outcomes of that of what your action would be? Right, and you can start to form sort of very nihilistic, like, conclusions because of that, right? And even if it's true, that every single action would result in, you know, random divergences we can, we can actually park those, those kinds of actions, we can separate them into two different kinds of decisions, rather. The first kind of decision isn't really a decision, because these are like random, sort of instinctual decisions. So I'm talking about like, should I drink coffee this morning? Or should I drink hot chocolate? Multiverse theory says that decision would effect in diverging outcomes. But that decision should be separate from decisions of moral nature, because that's more, these decisions are more instinctual. So this park that over to the side and say, okay, and then in that case, since there's nothing you can do about it, we don't really need to think about it. Whereas for moral decisions, things that we, you know, sort of sit down process, what are the outcomes that are going to be and what we think is best for us, these kinds of moral decision, these are something that we do have control over. We have like freewill over that. "Freewill," right? And, and so, those are the things that we need to be we need to concern ourselves with. Now, when we do have to decide, you know, should we do A or B? How do we know which one is the right choice? Right. And basically, the story proposes this idea that says, the decisions that you make Today, or in any given moment in that, sorry, decisions that you make in that moment, are then going to affect the future decisions that you're going to make in that branch where you made that decision. So let's say the decision you make is to follow your heart, which, which is the right decision, right? Because people say, what is the right decision? You might, you might start to confuse that with the right decision is the good decision, which is what society tells you is good, it's what religion tells you is good. It's what your parents tell you you should do. It might even be what you rationalise is best for you. But all of those aren't really the right decision. The right decision is what feels right to your heart, what's true to your heart. And whenever you choose what's true to your heart, what you're doing is you're giving future versions of yourself a better chance of continuing to choose the right decision. Right? Because in those future versions, when, when your future self is thinking about what you should do, you're thinking, well, the past version of me did what felt right to my heart, and so you're more likely to do what's right to your heart. And what's cool about that is it doesn't, it doesn't, it's not a definitive moment, it's not like, it's not like, okay, you've chosen the right thing, and therefore, the rest of your life is going to be good, right? That's if you've you've achieved, as if you've achieved sainthood or enlightenment, and everything is done. This framework allows you now allows you, that gives you some gives you a bit more flexibility. And it says, Every time you come across a moral decision, you can choose, you can make them you can make the wrong mistake. But you should always try to make the right decision, because you're giving yourself the best chance in the future.

Yeah, so that reminds me a lot of how Buddhists also value the present and how they view enlightenment. So I already mentioned the enso earlier, which is, you know, it captures the present moment it captures you, and you're not, you're not really gonna get that again. But it also ties in with their idea of enlightenment, because it's not like, once you achieve enlightenment, and we've, you know, felt that enlightenment when we came to the conclusion of, you know, becoming anarchists, right? It was enlightening for us. But it doesn't mean that all the sufferings that we are going through has ended. No, we are still suffering in our own ways. And there is that opportunity to be enlightened in different ways.

Yeah. So enlightenment is not a moment, it's more like a process. And it's not like, you become enlightened, everything is fixed. It's more like, enlightenment comes in these moments where there are so many things that causes suffering for you. And you can kind of see one, you can take one suffering at a time, and realise, I don't need to suffer about this. Because, you know, because that's the enlightenment, right? Yeah. And when that happens, when that happens, you feel a little bit, a little bit less painful, right? You feel like, you're, there's been some weight that's lifted off of you. And what's cool is that, in the future, when you come across other scenarios, right, where this ideas or this enlightenment can also can yet again, provide an answer to other things that cause you suffering, it becomes easier and easier to find that enlightenment or find that answer to the cause of your suffering, right. Which is pretty cool. Another thing that's pretty cool about you know, reincarnation slash multiverse, this, this, this moral framework that I was trying to describe is how individualistic it is. Right? I'm, you should be good. So that future versions of yourself, have a better chance of being good. That's kind of sounds a little bit selfish. If you think about it, it does sound a little bit individualistic. I said earlier, you know, I came to anarchy. I came to visit Buddhism from anarchism, right? And I came to anarchism from libertarianism. In libertarianism. They have a very, they have a very, they have a focus on individualism over sort of collectivism and And I think individualism in this, like moral framework is very important. Because if we can't, because it's very compatible with like human nature to like, sort of look out for yourself. I come from, like Christianity, where the moral framework is not really about yourself. It's always about, it's always about suffering for other people.

Yeah, I also came from, you know, a Catholic background, I went to Catholic all girls school for most of my life, and everything that, you know, we were thought about morality, and how we should love other people was equal to doing everything for other people. And there was really nothing for, for ourselves as individuals. And it messed me up, I would say, because I ended up having all these resentments because I was spreading myself so thin, and I ended up wanting other people to spread themselves thin for me, which, I mean, I think subconsciously, I knew it was not right, because obviously, it felt so toxic, but I didn't know the way out. And, you know, if someone had told me, and maybe a few people have told me that, oh, you know, you should love yourself, put yourself first, I had no idea what that meant. And I only knew what that meant just a few years ago, you know, when I was in my 20s, which just, I mean, that's kind of a little too old to know what it means to, you know, put yourself first, in my opinion, at least. And I think what's great about Buddhism for me is that it teaches other people that it's okay, or that it's not wrong, to put yourself first and that you actually should put yourself first, your well being first, so that you don't hurt other people. I mean, we've heard that saying that hurt people, hurt people, right? And this is how you get, you know, cycles of violence cycles of pain and oppression. It's because of that, right? We're, we haven't been encouraged to take care of ourselves. And that's why we're, you know, we pass that burden onto other people.

Okay, so let's try to bring this back to the story. We came, we came here from discussing how is it that Waymond was able to stay true in all the multiverses and we said that it was Waymond staying true, and being able to empathise or love Evelyn in every multiverse, that Evelyn was able to sort of stay grounded and not become nihilistic. But that's not the only thing Evelyn goes through or realises before she becomes enlightened, right. So it was Waymond who was able to keep her true, but that was not the complete picture. After this, after that montage, where, you know, we have the different instances of Waymond, there is the, it's followed by another montage, which is her reconciling with her arch nemesis, the tax collector. Right? And I just want to say, I just found his hilarious that, you know, the entire movie was set in the tax collection office, wink wink, when you know, and that the villain was like a bureaucrat, right. Basically, the quote unquote, villain, quote, unquote, villain, right. But she's not really the villain, right? I mean, nobody here is really the villain anyway. So the final piece of the puzzle was getting that empathy that she felt from Waymond and reciprocating it or like, or I should say, realising that that same love that Waymond gave her she can now extend it to everybody else, because everybody else is also suffering, the same way she suffers. So when Buddhists say you must enter the void, right? What they're also saying, and you must, you must, they must understand how you are suffering. They also mean it in the sense that you must understand how everybody is suffering. And therefore, we're all the same in this together in a weird way, and you don't have to feel so isolated. You don't have to feel so lonely.

And you don't have to isolate others, you have to isolate others.

And it's beautiful because earlier I was saying, you know how libertarianism focuses on the individualism, right? And that forms like the foundation or the core of this like moral framework, right? This this selfish in your own selfishness for, so that you can have better versions of yourself actually leads into the, like communal aspect of, of like harmony, right? Where, where you know where it's not just about yourself. It's also about seeing the way you suffer in other people and see the way other people suffer in you. And that's where the communal stuff comes in, and how it's only at that moment where she finally becomes enlightened. Right?

Yeah, you've told me about the scene and where the tax collection officers says that she doesn't feel like she's loved, because, you know, she's also divorced, she's alone. And Evelyn comforts her and tells her that, you know, she's worthy of love. And it's so funny, because I think maybe a few scenes before or after that it's them, you know, reuniting, right, after their lovers quarrel or something where they have the hot dog fingers, they reconcile, and they're able to express or show their love for each other again, in that multiverse. And I love that, you know, when, when the when, when the world was being explained to us, as you know, as viewers, Waymond tells her that she has to do something crazy or unexpected, so she can tap to her other parallel selves, so to say. And in that one of the first action scenes where the tax collection officer jumps off from the stairs, and Waymond tells her that you have to tell her that you love her and mean it, she has no idea what that means. But it's funny, because that's exactly what we see at the end. Right? Like, part of Evelyn's arc is realising that this tax collector officer who is a pain in the ass is worthy of love. And they're actually lovers in a different universe.

Yeah. And it was beautiful. It was beautiful how they portrayed it. They had really gross, hot dog hands. And she was able to love her despite how gross she thought the hot dog hands thing was right. And there's this beautiful like, piano scene where, where she's playing piano with her feet. Which again, is like otherwise would be so like absurd, and like maybe almost gross. But we are able to accept we the the audience also accepted that music as beautiful, even if it's super strange.

Yeah. And actually, there's also that scene where I think the tax collection officer is crying. Or maybe just one of them is crying, and someone wipes the tear away with the foot, which is also pretty funny.

Yeah, so basic. So Evelyn, finally, you know, becomes enlightened, she stops a bullet that's going towards her head, and then turns it into a googly eye and sticks it to her forehead.

Yeah and this happens right after that realisation.

This happens right after that. And she looks, but then she starts fighting all the thugs, but she doesn't fight them. She shows kindness, right? She looks at her husband and she says what her husband asking her "what are you doing"? She goes, "I am. I'm learning to fight. Like you." Right. When what Waymond does is he fights with love, he fights with kindness. And yeah, it's it was so cool that all the people, all of the thugs, she actually had some kind of relationship with, whether it's a customer at her store, or it's, you know, a BDSM guy, yeah. And she is or the guy with, with a bad back or racacoonie, it's all things, it's all like small details that she picked up and remembered about these people. And she was able to turn those into things that, these are things that you care about, and these are things that I want you do like, I guess enjoy or you know…

maybe for them to feel loved. I think it's interesting you know, since you mentioned the final scene, which is it's a it's still a fight scene, but I mean, because it's you know martial arts-y, but the way she does it is by showing kindness. And I love how the movie was able to convey once again, the importance of kindness. And maybe that's the most important virtue. Because I think a lot of us have been so calloused with, with kindness when people tell us that, you know, it's, it's best to be kind. People just lose their shit, like I've seen... I mean, when the pandemic started, and you weren't sure what was going on, and people were saying that, you know, let's be patient with each other, let's just be kind. I saw a lot of angry reacts to posts and comments like that. And, and I think part of it is because we think it's cliche, there's nothing new to that message. We know what it means to be kind, yet still, you know, the world is full of suffering. And I love how the movie was able to somehow change all of our minds, or maybe not change all of our minds, but was able to remind us that yes, it is kindness. That is what matters most. And I think the movie was able to do that by suspending our disbelief, it was so wacky from start to finish, it was so crazy, it took us on a ride, and, you know, it broke down so many of our expectations such that at the end of it all, we were left with nothing but kindness.

Yeah, that's right. I love that you said that, that the movie was able to say something cliche, by first breaking down, how ridiculous all the other sort of like virtues are right? And it was able to break it down by, I guess, flooding us with all of this nonsensical, whimsical like things. You know, it's a lot of people are saying that this is like modern surrealism, right, an art form that came about, like more than 100 years ago. And what's what it made me think about when you know, when people were calling it surreal art is how, like the surreal, because it's surreal, right, because it's nonsense, we don't attach all this other like political or, you know, relationship, baggage that we attach to that kind of nonsense, right? Because "no, it's not nonsense. This is my beliefs, or these are my..."

Yeah, so it's not attached to the world that we know,

exactly. It's not attached to the world that we know. And so surrealism is able to, like, tell us something about our world, or rather, talk about taboo things, or cliche, cliche things, basically talk about things that we probably can't talk about, by making it absurd, absurd, and making it you know, something that is more palatable, because it's absurd. And it's really awesome how he was able to do that, and how it used it to tell us the message, which is all of that isn't all of that is nonsense. The only thing that matters, if there's anything that we need to do, is we should be kind. And I want to talk about that for a little bit in the in the current, like political climate slash context. So she shows kindness to all of these thugs, which are supposed to be like, I guess, the mob, the adversarial mob that we have in our mind who represent the other side that is the reason for all our suffering, right? "My suffering is not, not because of me, it's because of other people," right? Yes. And, you know, usually the answer to that is, oh, I need to fight those other people in like modern, in like modern movies, you know, I'm thinking like Marvel movies, or actually any kind of action movie, where there's a protagonist and the protagonist has to fight. Right? Yeah, like the hero, the hero, right? It's almost always just "punch my way through and then at the end, I punched hard enough, and all good has been returned to the earth," right? This movie does the opposite. And actually, the movie maker I saw in an interview talked about how they wanted to make the fight scene different from the "punch-my-way-to-solve-my-problems," and instead show kindness to solve my problems. And these thugs, right, that which in other movies would be portrayed as like nameless, faceless thugs who are, who belong to the other side who are out to get you and of course, you can easily you know, beat them up because they're, they don't, they're nobody, in the movie, each and every single one of them, she actually had a relationship with and she was able to empathise with them. And because in the real life, all of these thugs that we think represent the other side, they're all also human, and they're all also suffering. And we're all just like, caught up in our own like, BS or whatever. Anyway, just to round, just to wrap up the politics or you know, the sort of surrealism slash politics thing. And this might angry, anger a few people I, I was wondering how much of surrealist art is actually a commentary on, like, on politics or, like taboo things. So what I mean by that is, in the movie there is this depiction of the, of the followers of Jobu Tupaki. And in their temple, they all have like, really a weird uniform, where they're all wearing face shields, with their, with the face shields raised up. And you know, if, if you were watching this movie, like years from now, and you don't know the context, which is the pandemic, you just think it's another kind of surreal, like, not whimsical, nonsense, or whatever. But actually, it has that connotation, which only perhaps, people who went through that would feel. And the thing is when it comes to the face shields, we know that is super whimsical, and super nonsensical. And yet people were fighting and arguing and like, you know, all of this misery that was caused by what in the movie is whimsical, right? Yeah. Anyway, so she becomes enlightened, right? And before her and her daughter have her final like showdown or whatever, connection, showdown and then connection. There's one more part that happens, which I think it's also important, which is Evelyn confronts her father. And the father is someone who has, you know, like, very rigid, kind of like, roles that he expects his family to conform with, all the way until the granddaughter, and that causes misery in the family and disharmony in the family. And I'm so happy that this movie, chose an Asian family to tell this story. I mean, besides the whole Buddhist, you know, Buddhist aspect of it, right? Asian family, and in particular, a Chinese family. Because, so far, we've been talking about how coercion is not, coercion is actually causes suffering, violence causes suffering. And if it's, even if it's for the greater good, right, so to say, it's still it's, it's, it's still it causes suffering. And actually letting go of these, like, letting go of our, like, material attachment is the way that we become enlightened. So we're talking about all of that. And it's, and maybe we're understanding it from like a, you know, big picture kind of societal level. And yet this philosophy or this idea, if it holds true in the societal level, it should also hold true in the family slash, you know, very interpersonal level. And I find it very appropriate that they chose the Chinese, or slash Asian family, because in these in these families, is where coercion towards children is the highest, but also at the same time, like profession, not profession of love, but sort of, justification of that coercion is because it is a form of showing love is also the highest. So what I mean by that, like Asian parents are very controlling of their kids. But it comes from a place that says, I want what is best for my kids, I want the greatest good for my kid, right? And that's kind of interesting, because if there is anybody who you would expect would have your best interests at heart, and, it would be your parents. And I actually think it's true. I think you're, I think most parents really do want what's best for their kids. And when it comes to Asian parents, they will put so much effort, right into doing what they think is best. And yet, even if that was their intention, the consequences is the same. You're still messing with people's with people's multiverses. You're still using violence to influence others, and that is actually what causes more dysfunction, and it causes the opposite effect of what you want it to happen. Now, I'm really happy that they chose an Asian family, no a Chinese family in particular, because that kind of like rigid hierarchies and like roles that family memberstake on in the family is actually defined in Chinese culture in Confucianism. Maybe you want to talk about Confucianism a bit more?

Well, I guess the, the main aspect of it is that Confucianism says that order depends on having very clear hierarchies and roles. And so that is, you know, order at home, order in your country, and so on and so forth. And so, for example, when it comes to order at home, within the family, the hierarchy is very dependent on gender and age. So, for example, if, if you're the wife, you are, therefore subservient to your husband. And I guess in more extreme Confucian societies, you are also subservient to your son, ideally, your firstborn son.

What's interesting about Confucian society is that it has its roots in Chinese statism. And Chinese statism is like this feudal sort of, feudal sort of, like, bureaucratic system where it's bureaucratic clans, right, or I should say, it's family clans that form the bureaucracy in different provinces and different regions, and how those clans interact with one another, how those clans interact within themselves, and then how those clans interact with like, I guess the, the ranks above them, right. All of those are defined in very strict social hierarchies. And that's what we call Conficianism. But what's funny about Confucianism is that although they are defined, they are only defined in terms of their authority. But what you should do, how you should act, is going to depend on what the authority says you should do, or you should act. Right. So the only thing, the only guidance it givesyou is that is that you must follow the auth, you must follow the authority that the structure or the hierarchy dictates even if what they're saying is against what you believe, or what they're saying is against your interests, or what they're saying is against things that you want to do. There's this dilemma or like chicken and egg thing where you're wondering also is confusion is like Confucianism, product, like is Confucianism as a, like, societal apparatus, is that a product of the family? Or is the family being Confucian, a product of the societal apparatus? right? And when you realise that the rules that the authority comes up with, is just as whimsical and it's just as surreal as all the other things that are whimsical in the movie, so to say, right? So going back to the movie, I love that one of the messages of the movie is, for old people, that we shouldn't be holding back young people because of old ideas. And I think that's really important to remember today, especially, you know, to bring up like the current politics, where we are sacrificing the health of kids over like, I guess ideas or like safety of old people. So the grandfather realises he's holding his family back, and learns to accept, learns to accept what's going on and lets go of his his authority, basically. And then we get to the final scene or, not the final scene, but the climax scene where mother and daughter confront one another. And they find connection again.

So this is the scene in, I think, well, this is, this is a lot of scenes, right? So this is, there's the scene that takes place in the parking lot. And there's a scene that takes place in the tax collection office, both are happening, I guess, simultaneously, and the one in the car, I mean, the one in the parking lot is where Joy tells her mom, you know, I'm so glad you have you're having your you know, enlightened moment, but I just can't stand being around you. So just let me go. You're causing me so much pain, your presence is causing me so much pain. And Evelyn decides, okay, I will let my daughter go. And so Joy gets into the car. And then Evelyn has a second thought right so she opens the car or tells Joy to come out. So they have have another confrontation again. And Evelyn starts saying things that she doesn't like about Joy, surprisingly. And I think Waymond in the background is also caught off guard by this and tells Evelyn to stop. And I think one of the most touching moments of the film happens right after. So after all the hurtful words that Evelyn says all her criticisms for her daughter, she says that, "I will always, always want to be here with you." And I was bawling when she said that, and I did not expect that line to come out. Because usually, you know, in the movies that I've seen, the usual line is "I will always be your mother, you will always be my child, I will always be your daddy," like you'd like, love you, or "I will always love you." And what's interesting about the movie is that because, you know, it was trying to break down all the, all the expectations, all the walls that we have, right? It was, you know, kind of letting us detach and seeing people for what they are. It made sense that now, when, when presented with, you know, having to be kind, and, you know, trying to figure out, what does that mean to be kind? What does it mean to, to show this kind of, you know, this loving kindness, as the Buddhists would call it? The answer seems to be being there, and cherishing the moment. And it's funny that, you know, after Michelle says that Joy reports, like, what does that mean, you know, the world means nothing, you know, we're all just like flecks of time, you know, it all just passes. And Evelyn says, "Then I will cherish this, flecks of time," something like that. And that is really the thing, you know, when it comes to showing our love to other people, I know, and we've talked about it, you know, what parents do is, you know, they plan out the lives of their kids, if we're, you know, going into politics, it's telling what other people should do, who they should vote for, or what they should vote for, or that they should even vote, for example, you know, we have all these things for what it means to love something. And the movie, and maybe also Buddhism, or anarchism kind of like, tells us to take a step back. And it's not those things, because those things are also causing us suffering. It's blinding us in certain ways. It's blinding us from seeing other people. It's blinding us from loving other people and empathising, showing compassion. And the way, or perhaps the antidote to all that, is to be there with someone, and just let themselves be themselves.

When I hear parents talk about their kids, and this is like, for example, in podcasts, or I guess, just in general, you know, they always say, "Time flew by so fast, like I my kids grow up so fast." They also say that they wish they could spend more time with their kids. In other words, what parents cherish the most with their children is not like, it's not all the expectations or, you know, like, imaginations that they will they have of their kid and what they will become. And it's not actually those things. It's simply just cherishing literally, the moment with their kid, no matter what, right? And when I say no matter what it's like, it means no matter like, what, like what happens between the two of you, and no matter what, what becomes of your kid, right, no matter how weird or like, I guess, different they turned out to be from what you expected. At the end of it, you still cherish the moments that you have together. And that's really what's most important, you know, like we were talking about earlier, like, the grandfather scene basically, is what we shouldn't do, right? What we shouldn't do is coerce people. And that applies not just broadly in society it applies even in the people that you care and love about the most. But it doesn't, that part doesn't tell you what you should do. And the final scene basically gives you the answer and says what you should do is simply cherish the moment. And that goes back to like finding connection with people and like going into the void and being able to stay true. The role of the parent in this case is someone who will always cherish you no matter how, like fucked up or weird, or like, whimsical or bizarre, you end up being, and, you know, will always be there by your side, no matter what happens. When the kid messes up, or you know, does whatever what he does whatever, right? The parent will always be there and will always accept the kid, even if no matter what they did. It doesn't have to, it doesn't have to be a parent, it's just that in for most people, if no one else, it's going to be the parent. And everybody still needs, not a parent, but somebody who you know, no matter what's going to happen, will always still love you and accept you and cherish every moment they have with you.

Can I say something quick? I think, you know, when you just said, you know, if there's no one else, it's the parent. I think maybe there are two, I would say quote unquote, fall backs for this idea of, you know, this kind of love its parent, and also yourself,

right. Hey, that's really good. No one else than it would be yourself. Yeah,

you have to accept yourself, all your fuck ups? You know, learning from them coming out of them? Yeah.

I'm gonna use that what you said, to make the last point I wanted to make. And I'm gonna go into sort of maybe explain it from the multiverse perspective. I'm not sure yet. Anyway, the last point I wanted to make is, when Evelyn gets her superpower, right? She's a, she gets her third eye. She's able to warp time and do things and love people. She also gets another power, which is she realises that anything is possible and that there are no rules, right? There's this scene where the two rocks are on the cliff, and they're supposed to be rocks, but then the mother turns to her, and then starts moving closer and closer, right? Again, she wants to spend more time with her daughter be closer to her daughter. And that's not supposed to be possible because they're rocks, they are not allowed to move. They were like talking to one another and thought bubbles, but they weren't moving right. So this is the first time where the impossible is happening, rocks are moving. And she tells her daughter, "there are no rules, anything is possible." You were saying When you love yourself, when there aren't people around you that are like trying to manipulate or like influence your decision, your decisions, right? Going back to the multiverse like morality framework thing I was saying earlier. If you're always able to choose the decision that feels right to you, then you become a person that's more true. And because it's more true, you're able to do anything that you want to do. Right? And that's what that's kind of one of the interpretations of anything as possible. Besides, besides the interpretation, that it's actually true, anything is possible. And there really aren't any rules. All of the rules that we think exist, social hierarchies, you know, societal rules, religious dogma, all of these things that are all of these things are just abstractions in our head and are just there to limit us. And if these things are making you unhappy, if these things are preventing you from like, following your heart, then you won't be able to, like free yourself or to be the best person your full potential, whatever that means. Right?

Yeah, I think also in connection with that is it'll also be very hard for you to see the potential in other people. Because your framework, right, the more you choose this path of abiding by these rules and frameworks is, well, that's how you will end up, you know, viewing the world and other people, and maybe you know, other living things. And now you will start imposing that same framework in other people. And if I could just go back to the movie really quick. One of the things that I also like about the movie is that, you know, part of like, the randomness is part of the story. Earlier, we talked about how it was a device, right, for us to accept this. But at the same time, I think there's something there by casting, for example, you know, a guy that is into BDSM, or like a racacoonie, right? Like, these are things that, you know, that are really weird or really taboo in society. There are people who look down on these things because they don't understand them. But the movie sort of suggests that, you know if this is how other people want to be loved, or if this is how people feel they are loved, who are you to deny them that, right? So like, yes, Michelle Yeoh or Evelyn, I should say, yeah, she knows she slapped someone's butt. Right? And you know, she fiddled with someone's head for the racacoonie thing. So part of, you know, letting other people be or, you know, opening yourself up to possibilities is accepting the possibilities of other people.

Yeah. Okay. Is there anything else you want to bring up? For we close this great movie, great movie. So that's the end of the discussion, hopefully, we were I was we were able to show how one can enter the void, and come out enlightened, come out with a white pill. Why anarchism slash Buddhism is, has made me more hopeful than ever before. And it has provided answers to questions that I've asked for a long time. So

I would say that, for me, the experience of this movie and learning more about Buddhist philosophy has really made me appreciate the present and like, it makes me see how important you know these moral decisions that I would encounter every day. And kind of like reframing these outlooks as I mean, I could be, you know, disgruntled when I make decisions, but looking at it as like an opportunity to open myself up an opportunity to love and see other people more clearly. And I am I feel more enticed to take that route of loving more connecting more.

Yeah, it's beautiful.

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